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How valuable is that MBA?

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There are plenty of ways to evaluate ROI on an MBA, the most obvious being to look at your potential post-MBA salary compared to where you’re at now.

There are plenty of intangibles associated with graduate business education too of course. The GMAC researchers put out a survey of bschool alumni every year to try and quantify some of them.

Here’s a graph from their 2017 report:

That’s a pretty convincing argument for the full-time two year MBA — but the EMBA is none too shabby.

It’s hard to say what factors may be contributing to the significantly lower “Outstanding” score for the Master in Management, though it’s a much smaller pool of MiM alumni that the GMAC folks would be polling, and we’d have to assume that it’s a younger cohort, too, only because a) usually people are younger when they go for an MiM compared to the MBA, and b) the MiM has only gained a foothold and become a popular educational track in more recent years. Presumably, people are more likely to see more significant value of their graduate education over time. That’s just a guess.

We’re posting this chart as one (of hopefully many) input to your process of considering options and researching programs.

The other data that jumped out for us was the online MBA numbers compared to the full-time MBA. A 25% “Outstanding” score is still pretty good, but it does pale in comparison to the full-time score of 40%.

What’s more interesting though is that when taken together, “Outstanding” + “Excellent” add up to a very impressive strong top-end performance for the online MBA, one that’s almost equivalent to that gold standard with the full-time MBA. That’s actually a bit of a surprise. The online MBA still gets a bad rap in many quarters, mostly because you by definition are sacrificing a lot of the networking opportunities, and the bonding with fellow classmates, that you naturally benefit from through the in-person on-campus experience.

Apparently it’s common for grads to speak highly of their school and their program. That makes some intuitive sense to us. After all, if you plunk down many many thousands of dollars, and devote many many hours of your life to studying corporate finance and statistics and double-entry accounting when you could be sitting on the couch with a beer, then it’s only natural that you’ll decide that it was a smart thing to do, and that the investment was worthwhile. Things would have to have been really fraught during your MBA studies for you to go completely sour-grapes and talk negatively about the experience. Most of us self-justify our biggest decisions in life to make ourselves come out as smart in our own hero story. If you dump all that time and money into something, then human nature means you’re more than likely going to say that it was worth it.

But that tendency does not explain away the extreme weighting on the positivity scale that we’re seeing here. To have so many alumni say that their graduate experience was excellent — not just good but excellent — is indeed remarkable.

Given how much less expensive, and convenient, and all around more manageable an online MBA can be, it’s a pretty big vote in favor of at least exploring it as an option for some of you. There aren’t yet many online-only programs at the Top 30 bschools but they are likely to sprout more in coming years, and the current hybrid options might be worth looking into, depending on where you’re at with your life situation and circumstances and your current motivation and priorities.

 
 
 
Another post on this topic here: If the main reason for getting the MBA is financial…

By request: Our thoughts on Arizona State

by EssaySnark - Discusses 2 Comments

We received a request for our opinion on ASU in this former BSer’s Success Story and so today we are circling back as promised.

Arizona State is home to the WP Carey School of Business – which is unfortunately not the only bschool named “Carey.” Johns Hopkins also has a “Carey Business School” sometimes known as “Hopkins Carey” as a way to distinguish itself.

Setting aside the inept campaigns that came out of this school’s marketing department over the years (they did redeem themselves in our eyes with this one) we do have to applaud ASU for trying to innovate in certain ways.

They were one of the first business schools that we know of to offer an online MBA, which is part of the school’s broader initiative in online education. They’ve become recognized leaders in that area, though obviously the online format is not the same as a butt-in-seat on-campus experience. A future employer may or may not view an online MBA to be equivalent in training and transformation as a residency program. Sure, you maybe don’t need to specify on your resume that it was the online version, but it’ll likely be obvious when your employment history shows that you’ve been living and working in Cincinnati at the same time that you earned your degree in Arizona. We do give ASU points for being leaders in this segment of the education industry, however.

WP Carey is currently ranked in the Top 100 globally by the Financial Times (specifically, #76), and in the Top 50 by BusinessWeek (just barely, at #49). No, we don’t put much stock into rankings, but it’s one place to begin the discussion. Carey is what we call a “lower-ranked school” – even lower than the ones we normally discuss in that “lower” category here on the blahg. We don’t spend a lot of snarky space talking about these schools on the blahg because they’re simply not that competitive. This isn’t a slam on them. It’s just the marketplace realities. It’s not that they aren’t good programs or that you won’t get a good education there. It’s that there aren’t that many others clamoring to get in. You don’t need to cough up a bunch of money to an admissions consultant to help you land an entrance. If you do a good job on the GMAT (these schools are flexible) and you write a decent set of essays, then there’s no reason why they wouldn’t find a spot for you.

What WP Carey has going for it is there isn’t much competition in its region. It’s definitely a strong school regionally, partly because, well, there just aren’t that many others to choose from. It’s sort of like Foster in Washington State: A good school, but also a school that sometimes people default to because it’s the only game in town. Once you move out of the Midwest with Chicago and Kellogg and Ross, you face a veritable bschool desert (pun intended). Arizona is kinda the only one, until you get to the coast and the hyperselective situation with those Bay Area schools especially.

What else does Carey have going for it? Apparently they have some money to burn. They announced last year that all incoming first years coming to campus for Fall 2016 will get a free ride. They’re calling it the Forward Focus Scholarship and it’s coming from funding previously allocated by their namesake alumnus, Mr. Carey. It’s an effort for them to increase diversity in the class, by attracting students who otherwise might be turned away by the expense (the examples they’ve offered are single parents, people in non-profit, etc.). You can read up on it at the Wall St Journal and on Carey’s own website . The Forward Focus Scholarship is part of their new branding and coincides with the launch of a new cross-campus integrated curriculum which is also named Forward Focus.

So what’s our opinion on all of this?

Well, free is certainly appealing – but it all depends on personal priorities, right? We are confident that you’ll get a very good education at ASU. Personally, we love the desert, and Arizona is pretty darn beautiful. If you’re into that outdoors thing, you can’t go wrong. And oh yeah, it’s a dry heat.

In terms of the actual school? We wish we could offer something more insightful about WP Carey but we have little to go on. The most we can offer is that anytime a new curriculum is being rolled out, there are some growing pains, particularly with one as disruptive as this Forward Focus initiative appears to be. We love the innovation that is happening there (Yale SOM is the only other school we know of with an integrated offering and the Carey one seems different) but we don’t know what it’s like in practice yet – in fact, nobody does, because it’s not here yet. Anyone beginning their studies in Fall 2016 will benefit financially but the jury is out on how the new curriculum is being implemented here.

We don’t have anything else we can say. We’ve been distant observers, peripherally aware of ASU, but they’ve not been in our sights or capturing our attention (except for previous lame internet banner ads). We have only once or twice been involved with critiquing essays for any BSer trying for this place. It’s not that they’ll accept any applicant with a pulse – but it’s really not that hard to get an admit. They are always on the lookout for motivated candidates, and anyone who’s bothering to research their MBA such that they end up at the ‘Snark’s site, well, you’ve shown yourself already to be pretty motivated right there. With their wide range of MBA formats then that means there’s lots of room in their different entering classes. Their recent promotion with the free tuition thing also shows that they’re willing to be scrappy, and take some risks, and do something big in order to build buzz and get some momentum going. Those are all positives.

Lower ranked (or even unranked) schools can do big things. This list summarizes an innovation coming out of a bunch of places you’ve never heard of – California State University Northridge, St Joseph’s, U Queensland. Quality education and unique opportunities can be found outside of the Top 10. In the case of ASU, we’re guessing there’s an energy at the place that’s exciting, given these changes.

What about you? Anyone out there a student at ASU Carey? Anyone got an opinion based on direct interactions with students or alumni at this school? Please let us know in the comments – we’re always interested to hear about firsthand experiences!

($) Commuting to a part-time or Executive MBA

by EssaySnark

Continuing on with more thoughts on the EMBA from yesterday: There really is no excuse NOT to do the campus visit when applying to an EMBA since, theoretically, you’re local to the school. Yes, it’s true that more and more students are commuting further distances to an EMBA and other part-time formats. We’ve seen plenty…

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UNC Kenan-Flagler

by EssaySnark - Discusses 3 Comments

EssaySnark was floored – really truly floored – on Friday when we got the email below.

We have never before been approached by a school about anything. In fact, the times that we have approached the schools ourselves, we haven’t exactly been given the warmest of receptions. You think there’s a stigma for you in  using an admissions consultant? Try BEING an admissions consultant and see how much the adcoms like you. Our opinions on that shortsighted attitude will be reserved for another post.

Back to our new favoritist bschool in the world. We’re gonna just let this one stand on its own, exactly as it came in to us (and boy we hope that the sender doesn’t mind that we’re doing this – we’re guessing not but we’re not usually in the habit of publishing people’s emails verbatim like this).

Here goes:

On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 2:19 PM, some-really-awesome-person-from-UNC wrote:

Hello,
I am the community manager for MBA@UNC, UNC Kenan-Flagler’s online program that you mentioned in your post on May 6th. I came across your blog recently and was very interested in your thoughtful post.
I wanted to address some of your views on online MBA programs through the lens of our program. If nothing else, I hope this information will be beneficial to you and your services towards clients in the future.
Face to face interaction/networking
Our classroom platform is a dynamic, face-to-face experience where our students participate in mandatory live class sessions with their classmates and professors. While they are not physically in the room together, live video and audio allow students and professors engage in a lesson that is taught as it would be in a live classroom.
In addition, the live platform is accessible anytime to students to use for collaborating on group projects as well as for live office hour sessions with their professors. 
We take the in-person element one step further where we host quarterly global immersions in different cities around the world to provide a unique academic experience where the students engage in classes by guest speakers and industry experts, and networking events. Two of these weekends every year are held internationally while the other two are domestic, with one being on campus in Chapel Hill.
As our students have continuously expressed, these weekends feel like reunions between old friends rather than meeting each other for the first time; which is a testament to the community our students build in their online classes. 
Ease of getting into an online program
While this may not be true for other programs, our selection process and criteria are the same as our residential programs, thus creating an equally competitive program with the same quality of faculty, curriculum, and student.
Career Management
We have a dedicated career services team focused on the needs of our global working professionals in this program, providing individualized career management advice, support and tools appropriate to where any individual student is in their career. 
We offer individualized assessments, one-on-one executive coaching, virtual workshops/webinars, and produced curriculum that is designed to support students in managing their careers, as well as support and coaching around internal moves, requests for promotions and salary negotiations. We also provide individualized support for job searches that are more of a switch – across companies, industries, functions, and geographies.
I hope this was helpful and you’ll be able to use this information – I realize you weren’t calling out our program specifically, but I thought it would be a great benefit to us both to explain MBA@UNC’s advantages and features.
If I can ever be more of a resource, please let me know. I would be happy to arrange an opportunity where we can show you our learning platform or arrange a conversation between you and a current student. Thanks in advance for your time and I hope you have a great weekend.
Best regards,
[really awesome person from UNC] 


The only thing that the ‘Snark has to offer here is that the post he’s referring to was from May 6th a year ago (2011) — we haven’t really gathered a lot of new information since then, personally or from our clients, about the online MBA or the specific UNC option, to refute or modify the opinions and concerns that we had in that original post. (We did have a handful of clients accepted to UNC this past season, though they haven’t matriculated yet.)

Regardless, the information that UNC has provided to the ‘Snark is plenty helpful. And, the one big reality that we didn’t acknowledge in last year’s write-up is important to acknowledge now. The very real fact is that more and more of business today is distributed. Workplaces are no longer static, fixed offices where everyone is gathered together in one location. Teams are global, and virtual and that is only going to increase as you continue your careers. So, our complaint that the UNC online program is a disadvantage due to lack of real-time talking to people in 3D experiences… maybe that’s not as big of a drawback as we originally were thinking.

We’re gonna be taking Mr. UNC up on his offer to learn more about the virtual classroom experience and will report back when we do. We make a point of visiting several bschools every year — yes, just like we tell all of you, we go out on campus tours, too. The fact that UNC brings the classroom to you and me is kinda appealing.

No GMAT required part 2

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There’s another option for any of you somewhat older, somewhat GMAT-averse types.

The Cornell EMBA.

Not the Cornell-Queen’s EMBA, which is a distance-learning/distributed/virtual classroom thingymabob with Cornell in partnership with Queen’s College. Apparently with that one, you are awarded with not one but TWO MBA degrees.

Not sure what two MBAs will get you that one will not. Especially since nobody’s heard of the Queen’s MBA (at least not in this country). Might actually be better to leave that one off the resume, frankly. That’s pretty wild advice, we realize — after all, if you got two MBAs, then shoot, why not tell the world! But anyone who has ONE MBA will wonder what’s up with all that and in our very opinionated opinion, the Cornell MBA would have more weight than this aglomination of the Cornell-Queen’s thingamajiggy. But we digress. And likely are offending people right and left.

Back on topic. Getting into bschool without the GMAT.

The Cornell EMBA does not require a GMAT score. No, they don’t require the GRE either. Now, apparently they “may” ask you to take the GMAT, if they need “additional evidence to support a candidate’s academic preparedness for the program”. Or in other words, if your academics are too sketchy.

Some info about this program is here. Average age is 36. Tuition is a whopping $145k. It’s designed for working professionals. You’ll lose most of your weekends plus a full week a quarter for nearly two years. The week-long residencies are in Ithaca at the Cornell campus with the weekends at IBM’s Palisades complex north of Manhattan.

Sorry, let’s put that tuition into perspective, shall we?

Columbia is one of the most expensive, if not THE most expensive, MBAs around. Their current estimates of expenses for the two-year full-time program are $168,307. BUT THIS INCLUDES THE COST OF LIVING IN NYC FOR TWO YEARS!! WTF Cornell — $150k?? Really?!? That doesn’t include any room/board expenses, does it? Nor the commute from wherever you live (CT, MA, NJ, NY) to the residencies/weekend sessions. This EMBA appears to be a profit center for the Johnson School.

BUT… maybe it’s worthwhile.

The advantages?

– You don’t have to quit your job
– You don’t have to sell your house and move
– You don’t have to uproot your family
[These first three are obviously relevant for older types. You know, people with houses and families. Which is clearly who this program is targeted to] – You don’t have to take the GMAT
– Your company might pay for some/all of it
– You don’t have to take the GMAT
– You still get the networking and butt-in-seat benefits of an education in front of a real live professor. Rather than these online MBA options that are popping up all over these days.
– You don’t have to take the GMAT.

So if you’re really not liking the GMAT, and you’re of standard bschool age (i.e., in your 20s), then why not just skip it, wait a few years (or ten) and then cough up this $150k (or whatever it’ll be down the road) for the Cornell option?

Actually, the Cornell-Queen’s EMBA website says that advanced degree holders may inquire about getting a waiver on the GMAT. So it may not be required there, either.

Keep in mind as you’re evaluating your options what you will actually get. If you’re 36 years old and going to get your MBA — that means you’re like 38 when you graduate — how much more additional earning power is it really gonna get you at that stage??

Might be worthwhile. But might be worth some additional thinking too.

What about an online MBA?

by EssaySnark - Discusses 2 Comments

We responded to a question on an online board about someone debating whether they should accept an offer at an online MBA program. UNC Kenan-Flagler is a pretty good business school (their real estate MBA is especially strong) and they’ve recently announced a big push into the online/distance learning MBA world.

Are they blazing a trail in the world of business education? Or is this a misuse of resources that could possibly be a disservice to the students?

The standard question is, is it a real MBA? And the hidden question which is sometimes not expressed is, will anyone know I “just” did the online program? There’s definitely some stigma to it — sort of like online dating used to be, right?

Here’s what we basically posted to this other Brave Supplicant, plus additional color added in.

First off, if you go through an online program, it’s still an MBA degree. There will be no way for future employers to know that it was an online MBA or a traditional butt-in-seat 2-year program. An MBA is an MBA is an MBA, and it’s highly likely that the degree you get and the fancy diploma you’ll receive will just be “MBA”; no one will know the difference. This is a question you might want to pose to the schools, of course, but this is how it’s done at other schools that have various “flavors” of MBA (P/T, F/T, etc.). So down the road, you’ll have the degree listed on your resume just like anyone else would.

The biggest disadvantages about the online programs — and these really are significant, if you ask us — is that obviously you don’t have the face time with professors and peers. The classroom experience — and the out-of-classroom social opportunities — are really really a big part of what bschool is about for most people. How can you do a case discussion in an online chat room? How do you complete a team project when you’re scattered around the planet? How do you network with managers, executives, future mentors when you’re accessing the education mostly through a computer?

Yes, there are also advantages to the online option, in terms of convenience, and the fact that you can usually keep your job and not uproot a family, etc. And yes, it’s generally easier to get into these online programs. And, most or all of them offer several extended on-campus sections embedded within the curriculum, so you do get to meet your classmates etc. But the jury is still out on how it’ll all fit together for the students.

But the other big (BIG!) factor that may be overlooked is, what about on-campus recruiting? Besides the long-term value of networking and relationship-building and mentorship that you can receive when you’re in person on campus interacting with real-live people, the other huge benefit from most traditional two-year MBA programs is the on-campus recruiting opportunities. We have not fully explored what these online programs offer — they’re definitely geared more to working professionals, so perhaps there isn’t the intention to help graduates secure new jobs, at least not with the same focus that a standard F/T residency program has. But this is an important consideration to look at in terms of why you’re getting the MBA in the first place.

If your career is fairly well established (and you like it!) and you’re literally looking to build skills in order to advance within the same field, perhaps even at the same company, then the online version could be a great fit. But, if you’re looking for bschool as a means to launch out of some miserable hell-hole of a job that you just cannot stomach for one minute longer… then obviously the online program is not the best way to go. The grey areas? Those people that are in between.  Maybe you plan on keeping your current job while you complete the MBA, but then you were looking to make a big switch. If that’s the case, ask some direct questions of this prospective school about what type of recruiting/placement programs they have available, particularly for someone who lives where you do (or where you want to live after you graduate). If those places are nowhere near where the school is, and if it’s a down-the-rungs-of-the-ladder school like some of these that are lanching online programs, then you’re gonna be a little disappointed, we suspect, if you are expecting the school to have that many resources or opportunities available to really assist you in connections for this post-MBA job.

We are undecided as to whether an online MBA has the same ROI as an in-person traditional program. The online versions are generally cheaper — they’re trying to attract candidates, and their costs are at least marginally lower. So it could be easier to turn a positive ROI there, especially when you’ve got lower opportunity cost since you’re not moving to a new city, and you’re not giving up your job.

But there are huge advantages to being on campus, sitting in the classroom with this full crop of other motivated students, rubbing elbows with smart people, chatting up professors, networking with CEOs who come to speak on campus, etc. Yes, most of the online programs have on-campus weeks scheduled into the curriculum, so you don’t miss out on it entirely, but this is a new animal. None of it’s been proven. Perhaps in just a few years, we’ll all look back and think we were foolish for even worrying about these things. Maybe butt-in-seat face-time classroom learning will become an antiquated thing of the past. (We’re sure it will, at some point, just how long that takes — and the quality of the experience that replaces it — are open questions.)

Until that time, it’s gonna take a brave few (hopefully not a foolish few) who help the schools with the experiment, who let them work out the kinks, and report back.

If you decide you’re ready to be the guinea pig, then go for it, Brave Supplicant! But also be prepared for taking control of your destiny in a really big way as you move through the process.