EssaySnark

Our conclusions about the HBS and women NYT brouhaha

by EssaySnark - Discusses 14 Comments

We got a comment on the blahg the other day asking about our reactions to the Harvard article. ‘Cuz we haven’t really reacted, have we? We had the two links posted front-and-center for a couple days (in case you missed them: here’s the first one, mostly about women, and then the follow-up, mostly about class) and we encouraged everyone to read them. We’ve been making comments on Twitter about it – like these:

But there was no formal EssaySnark opinion tossed out in response.

Since you asked… today we’ll do that.

Here’s how it plays out:

1. Of all the current students and recent alumni we’ve spoken to, male and female alike, NONE of them see the problems discussed in those articles. And this is to be expected; the articles threaten all the choices those people have made in life. What’s in it for them to agree? It’s damaging to the brand, and people who go to HBS are – let’s face it – brand conscious, and proud. We heard a lot of comments to the effect of, “You can’t believe everything you read in the paper” and “It’s the New York Times, what do you expect?”

2. Of the people who had already been planning their applications to HBS, nobody is phased by it – again, male and female alike. In fact, some women completely brushed it off (these are also individuals we have observed to be very brand conscious anyway, so no surprise). Our impressions? Some women feel that it would be a small price to pay, to deal with these issues, if it means going to Harvard Business School. [ETA: See the comments for some people who feel (somewhat) differently.]

And here’s the kicker: On the class/money issue, a lot of people think it’s a positive; they want to go to Harvard because of the amount of wealth walking through the halls – especially if they themselves don’t have it. That whole “HBS network” thing, right? Takes on a whole new perspective in this light.

Our main takeaway from all of this is was unexpected: EssaySnark actually gained more respect for Dean Nohria; he had rubbed us the wrong way through many of his interviews in his first year or so. To hear that a young female professor is so intimidated by the students that she fears a wardrobe malfunction? Not so surprising. Troubling, perhaps. Surprising? No. To hear that a female student is only going to Harvard to land a husband? Again, not surprising (unfortunately); the quip is that the MBA is the MRS degree. To hear that the students resented the social engineering going on in section? Yeah, also expected. This is Harvard. These people didn’t get there by being wallflowers and milquetoasts. Of course they’re going to have opinions.

All the students and alumni we spoke with categorically denied that there’s an issue on campus or in class for female students. The sentiment expressed in the articles in the student paper are similar to what we heard from everyone we spoke to. It seems that everyone has closed ranks and is protecting the fold. We heard comments like, “It’s better at HBS than it is on Wall Street” – which of course directly contradicts the quotes from Kantor’s article that HBS is worse than a trading floor. Literally nobody we spoke with said that they felt women were treated any differently than men at Harvard.

Again, we didn’t speak to many, and the ones who did talk are a self-selected bunch. EssaySnark’s reaction? We believe these problems do exist at Harvard, and to some extent, at all business schools.

That’s the main gist of a memo that Professor Youngme Moon sent around to students when the article was released. One of them forwarded it to us, and it’s good. While she takes issue with many characterizations that Kantor made, she overall agrees with the key themes of the article. That memo specifically said that “we don’t need to argue our case in the media” – that memo was quite powerful and we think it would’ve been helpful for them to release it.

In fact, we tried to get it out there for you. We think it’s in your interest as prospective applicants to Harvard to see what the faculty have to say about these issues directly – unfiltered by the media. And so, being Polite-And-RespectfulSnark, we asked Professor Moon for permission to publish her memo along with this post. We were denied. She said “It was an internal memo written for our internal community, and I am just not comfortable sanctioning external publication of it.” We think that’s a mistake, given the dearth of post-NYT information from Harvard itself. But we’d be pissed if some lame-o website published something we had written for internal purposes only, so we’re not going to do that to her. Tempting though. Hate it when those ethics get in the way. 😉

We think all of you were cheated by that. She makes some very valid points and it’s a positive message – some spin, yes, but some honesty too.

What’s especially missing has been any reaction from Admissions. Despite the school’s apparent decision to offer nothing in response and hope it would slide over, we would’ve expected Dee Leopold to say something about it – how hard would it be to post a reassuring note on her blog?

EssaySnark is certain that these articles have prompted significant soul-searching – not just at HBS but at all the top schools. (This unrelated blog post from UCLA Anderson Admissions touches on it briefly – the adcom are getting questions about these issues in their info sessions.) What needs to change the most are the issues around female faculty… and why is nobody talking about race???

The impact on the Harvard MBA admissions process remains to be seen. Several years ago Harvard started shifting focus from the prototypical consultant/banker applicant profile that used to make up the bulk of its class, in favor of admitting more careerly-diverse candidates. Consultants and bankers still make up a huge proportion of the school though. Will this media attention prompt more changes? Probably, but in what respect and how that will play out is a big unknown. Admissions sure hasn’t hinted at anything.

When we first saw those articles we thought they would affect app volumes this year; now, we’re not so sure.

Everybody wants to go to Harvard. Don’t you?

We only got input from a handful of Harvard people (low double digits). If you’re currently at Harvard or recently graduated, we’d love to get your take; please post in the comments if you have anything to add.

Here's what others have said about this:

  1. Professor Moon’s memo is posted in its entirety over at P&Q. I won’t link, but it’s still on the front page. I agree with the ES assessment: a little biased, but positive and genuine as well.

    Reply

      • Thought that might be the case, hence the no link. I also clicked on the Section X Instagram story over there, but I felt icky halfway through. Someone called them out in the comments section for being tabloidy, which it really, really was.

        Reply

  2. As a female applicant, HBS has lost a few points on my list. Wharton has now emerged as no. 1 on my list, pushing HBS to no. 2, not because of the NYT article, but because of the lack of response from the Ad Com regarding this issue. I’m not sure what their strategy in not responding is, but to me, it is indicative of a lack of communication.

    I attended the HBS Women’s MBA Event in NYC a few weeks ago, where the hand raising issue was referred to by the Ad Com (this was before the NYT article.) Based on responses to a few questions in that session (specifics withheld), I did not get the impression that the Ad Com sees a need to attract more women to HBS.

    The issues addressed in the NYT article? I’m sure they exist at most business schools, not just HBS; I have experienced the gender tension personally in i-banking internships and to a lesser-extent in my current job, as have many others. You figure out ways to deal with it.

    As a female applicant, I hold in higher regard an environment such as Wharton’s, where the Ad Com has made a proactive push towards increasing the ratio and set a precedent for other schools. And so, this fall, if I am lucky enough to get accepted to Wharton, I will be THRILLED. HBS would be a ride for the brand name, not issues that hit a personal chord.

    Reply

    • As a male applicant (who cares a lot about gender equality issues), Wharton gained a few points on my list from all this. The comments on the NYT article as well as conversations with Wharton alumnae give me hope that the school has little of the macho culture that I experienced when I worked in finance.

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      • Just wanted to give a separate shout-out to the guy who cares about this stuff and is willing to say so. EssaySnark cares about all kinds of equality and we dig it when others do, too.

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        • Haha, thanks! Any self-respecting BSer should probably care too. Even if they haven’t decided that it’s way better to learn/work in a diverse, balanced environment, they should at least pay attention what the numbers show about companies with men AND women in leadership rules (spoiler alert: they do better!).

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  3. Vucla: that’s an interesting perspective! My mentors / bosses who graduated 10-20 years ago cautioned me that Wharton tends to have a big ‘macho finance culture’. My personal experience from discussions with current students / alums shows that this is no longer true. Some of the nicest people I know in my network attend Wharton. They claim, the school realized the issues they were facing in terms of culture and has made a proactive push to counter these issues. Extra points to the school for not only overcoming the ‘macho culture’ but also rising above it to record levels of female admission.

    Reply

    • Great discussion here.

      Agreed that the change in Wharton culture is recent; we used to warn our female clients about it, just as you reported people had done with you, nycft11. Ankur and her team are at least part of the reasons for the improvements in recent years.

      And along those lines: NYU is another school we’ve always been impressed with in terms of culture and genuine efforts to attract women. They also have (gasp!) an African-American dean. Kinda unheard of. If anyone is exploring options and wants to go to a truly friendly place, Stern would be one to check out.

      Reply

      • Agreed on Stern. I’ve found that Stern has a collegial network of alums willing to help each other out. Over the years, my Stern friends have reached out to their classmates to gather more information for me (re: switching jobs, career path, industry perspective, etc.) and these connections have been immensely helpful. A Sternie once described the student body as ‘down-to-earth, genuine, friendly strivers’

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    • @dfg3201, that’s our attempt to contribute to a wider conversation around issues we care about. 😉 It also doesn’t affect admissions/BSers and so we didn’t want to sacrifice one of our daily posting slots here on the blahg for something that seemed non-essential to all of you – especially at this time of year.

      Thanks for asking – and for reading it!
      EssaySnark

      Reply

  5. I had the same reaction as you, Essay Snark, after reading the article – thanks for the link to it, by the way! I reached out to a lady friend who is currently enrolled at HBS and asked her about two topics. The first was whether she’d noticed any gender related issues. She said the article got quite a bit of attention on campus, but she has never felt at a disadvantage versus men. In fact her own view was that gender issues were talked about more than needed sometimes! I’ve been taking a look at other reactions and found an interesting video on MBAdventure.com, the blog of a 2013 HBS graduate. It’s a bit marketing-y, of course, but I still felt it’s worth checking out.
    My second concern after reading the NYT articles was that HBS has a party culture. As a library rat I’ve never much gotten into the whole drinking games thing, so if that were a core part of the experience then I’d be a bit worried… She also confirmed it’s not really like that. There’s a class of 900 people with different preferences. Her take is that there are quite a few very much into drinking games, but that she’s been able to meet people who like to have fun in a different way.

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    • I, also, had the same reaction but don’t know anyone currently at the school. It’s great to see that the school has started to adapt to be more inclusive of women – I think that it’s important for such a prestigious institution to set the morale example in these situations, especially when it has such a large influence on the wider business environment.

      All of the business schools promote their diverse class, invariably this means a % of people coming from wealthy backgrounds as well as those from poorer communities. If 10% of a class (at any top school) represents the top 1% of wealth from that country, then there will be a divide. This is more obvious in a class of 900 where there are 90 people in this exclusive club, vice a class of 400 where the numbers of ‘elite’ students may not have the critical mass (or inclination) to separate from the rest of the student body.

      Reply

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